From: Shlomi Fish (shlomif_at_nonexisting.hamakor.org.il)
Date: Wed 25 May 2005 - 18:06:02 IDT
I'm CCing to the list so they'll be more interested.
On Wednesday 25 May 2005 16:00, you wrote:
> Comparing attempts to prevent a genocide with breaking the copyrights
> law is an insult to whomever been in the holocaust.
No it's not. I wasn't comparing anything. I was just mentioning the fact that
if laws are unethical and irrational, a person cannot be held liable for
breaking them, if he does.
> You cannot dismiss
> any laws you do not agree with, it just doesn't work this way
I can dismiss them if I can show how irrational and harmful they are. I'm not
saying I will break them at that point. I'm not using or selling drugs, for
example, because although ethical these are immoral activities.
> - YOU
> should get a reality check (and a shrink or a probation officer, ASAP.).
No, you should. You seem like a goody-two-shoes who think the Law of the Land
is the Law of God, and don't question it or criticize it. Here's a newsflash
for you: often the Law of the Land deviates a great deal from anything we can
call ethical. (see Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Communist China, etc.
etc.). In this case, people should voice their opinion against it and work to
remove it.
The bylaws of Israel are pretty good, but not perfect. Not only do I think
they are bad in some respects, but I voice my opinion about it. If I violate
any laws, it's because these laws are not immoral.
> It's not that disobeying this specific law will cause chaos, but the
> idea that an individual is obeying only the laws he agrees with will.
I am not a relativist, and I don't think people should initiate force,
coercion or fraud. But most laws in Israel and most other Liberal countries,
are harmful, and thus are constantly violated, and rightfully so. I say that
we should change the bylaws instead of trying to enforce anyone not to
violate any law, however irrational it is.
>
> The music industry supplies work to the software engineering industry,
> hardware, catering, electricity, real estate, and many, many, MANY more,
> not to mention that
Possibly. However, you evaded my point: I said that making the public more
prosperous on behalf of the music industry will as a general rule concentrate
less money in less hands, and cause these people to invest and spend them on
better venues, than just buying music. (which is now simply bit-buckets).
Another thing, is that even if no-one sells CDs (very unlikely) there will
still be music hobbyists and professionals (who will supply work for all
these industries) and public performances, and other music ventures like
that.
Let's return to the analogy of Government Beurcracy. Do you know how many
industries supply services to government beaurucrats? Quite a lot. However,
do you think that taxes should not be lowered because it will mean less
beauracrats?
On the same note, I could say that open source is not good because people
download software and use it free-of-charge, instead of paying for more costy
proprietary alternatives.
> a couple of other large industries, else than the
> music industry, rely on the copyrights laws.
>
Have you read what I said? I never supported completely abolishing copyright
laws. However, I think that media (excluding software) should be
non-commercially shareable. This will not hurt media sales much, and it's not
a crime ethically, and the alternative is a complete witch-hunt of fully open
source people.
> You are trying to justify your criminal actions with ethics, which is
> just wrong.
>
First of all my actions are not criminal. Maybe they violate the letter of the
law, but a criminal action is an unethical one. And why is _reasoning_ (not
justifying mind you) my actions using ethics and logic, wrong? How else do
you expect me to reason my actions?
There is a saying in Hebrew: "גזרה שהציבור אינו יכול לעמוד בה". It translates
to English as "an Order that the public cannot withstand". The prohibition of
file sharing is exactly such a case.
> But go ahead, share music and other copyrighted material if you want...
That I will do. And so will most Israelis who have a fast Internet connection.
> I won't be sorry if and when they will rip you off everything you own in
> court.
>
If that will happen, I will fight them first.
Regards,
Shlomi Fish
> --
> Imri Zvik
> PGP (2.6.3ia) Public Key: http://mariska.inter.net.il/~imriz/imriz.pgp
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shlomi Fish [mailto:shlomif_at_iglu.org.il]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 3:22 PM
> To: Imri Zvik
> Cc: linux-il_at_linux.org.il
> Subject: Re: Acting against anti-file-swapping Lawsuits in Israel
>
> On Wednesday 25 May 2005 14:45, Imri Zvik wrote:
> > When people start choosing what laws to obey and what not, it is the
> > fastest way to chaos.
>
> The only valid laws are the prevention of initiatory force, threat of
> force,
> or fraud against one's self or property (not the so-called "intellectual
>
> property"). All other laws: against drug abuse, against prostitution,
> against
> gambling, against insider's information, against monopolies etc. etc.
> are
> irrelevant and unethical.
>
> Violating a law that says that one should not share his music over the
> Internet, will not cause any chaos. People do it all the time, and still
> food
> is in supply, stores are open, water is flowing in the pipes, there's
> supply
> of electricity, and the Internet is available for commerce and
> recreation.
>
> You should get a reality check.
>
> > The fact is that you still break the laws of the
> > sovereign, democratic entity you're part of, and that would make you
>
> an
>
> > outlaw, a criminal.
>
> If I lived in Nazi Germany and hidden a Jew in my house, (which was
> against
> the law) would that make me a criminal? (please don't invoke Godwin's
> law
> here)
>
> Laws that are unethical, need not be followed.
>
> > And about the economic system - didn't you ever hear about the term
>
> "The
>
> > Domino Effect"? Music for example pays salaries of numerous of people,
> > allowing them to be able to buy other products and services, and by
>
> that
>
> > help other people receive a paycheck. Producing and trading
>
> copyrighted
>
> > materiel is still producing and trading, which is, as you stated, are
> > the foundation stones of our economic system. Saying that the fact you
> > can't smell/touch it makes it ok, is so... uhmm, idiotic? As far as I
> > know, you're not an ostrich, so don't burry your head in the sand.
>
> Domino effect.. hmmm... according to this logic, if we lower the income
> tax,
> then firing a great deal of government bureaucrats will also cause the
> economy to collapse. ;-)
>
> If people download music instead of buying it, then the public as a
> whole will
> be more prosperous, and will spend this money or invest on better
> things.
> While we may kill the music industry (highly unlikely, but still) the
> other
> industries will be much better off. During the course of human history
> entire
> industries were superceded by other ones, and yet we still live to tell
> the
> tale, and we are better and more prosperous and more advanced than ever.
>
> Again, you're misapplying concepts.
>
> Regards,
>
> Shlomi Fish
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shlomi Fish shlomif_at_iglu.org.il
> Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/
>
> Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for
> closures
> is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of
> paragraphs.
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish shlomif_at_iglu.org.il Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/ Tcl is LISP on drugs. Using strings instead of S-expressions for closures is Evil with one of those gigantic E's you can find at the beginning of paragraphs.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Sat 08 Oct 2005 - 15:41:58 IST